Just An Observation

[mike1]

I am 2 1/2 years out and was below goal for a while after an unplanned triple bypass surgery one year out from when I had WLS. I was absent from this site for over a year and came back to get motivated. I want to lose 10 to 15 lbs. The posts I see here are doing that, yes thank you all for the wonderful advice and sharing. However I see a very common theme. I see a lot of rule breaking, especially from those about a year to 18 months out. Some examples are drinking while eating or just before eating and just after, and not focussing on proteins first. I also see a lot of junk food eating amongst this group. I am not here to judge anyone but I know for fact from 18 months and longer out this tool we all have becomes less of a physical matter and more of a mental matter. What I am trying to say is this, the rules we were all given are there for a reason, they have been determined by experts with years of experience and data. If excessive rule breaking is working for you now, chances are it will not be in the very near future. I also notice their ins't a lot of talk about BMI's, this is not the end all stat, but it sure as hell gives you a great point to determine your overall weight guidelines. I am not trying to say a rule should not be bent sometimes, it happens to everyone. I am saying rule breaking seems to be a normal every day thing for some that have less than 3 years with the sleeve. Can someone over 3 years out that breaks the rules daily please respond and with a BMI that is acceptable? I don't think I will get many, but if I do I will chalk it up to a learning moment. There now I feel better,, thanks for listening.

[Lee6Lee]

Thank you! That was such important information!

[Kodi's Mom]

I am only 13 mos out so I am interested in responses to this post also.

[Ann2]

It's sort of like Hogwarts. There are, generally speaking, two main schools of post-WLS thought. And the members of each school often go to war with each other over which approach is superior. Their online "discussions" too often resemble religious wars.

The two main schools of thought are:

1. Follow the Rules Until You Die School

2. The Eat Like a Regular Person in Moderation School

And then there are a couple of other groups.

There's the "I have a sleeve and will never have to think about or take responsibility for what I eat or anything else ever again!" school. This group contains a lot of WLS patients who either don't lose all their weight and gain a lot of their weight back. Some of them realize, in time, that the sleeve alone really was not the only tool they needed to be successful long-term, and they come back to class (metaphorically speaking) and eventually graduate.

Then there's the "I followed the rules to lose the weight, and now I'm going to eat more normally." Some of those do fine; others go a bit off the deep end and regain some weight, then come back and try to find a happy medium between the rules and "eating normally."

I'm being a bit flip, of course. But there's a real tension between the regimented, disciplined, "perfect" life vs. the impetuous, impulsive, irresponsible (yes, I said it!), whatever everyone else around me is doing at the moment life. And obviously, there's a long range of degrees between those two poles.

Speaking purely for myself, I think I'll wind up during maintenance (I've not been here even a month) finding a sweet spot that works for me that incorporates the accountability of weighing myself frequently and counting my calories / carbs / protein / fats / water for the first year of maintenance. I can tolerate that kind of obsessive behavior (not everyone can). But I know from my past dieting history that if I don't keep a close tab on my behavior I can readily lose control.

My personal goal is to gradually develop more instinctual and habitual control about how much and what kinds of food I eat.

I dunno why I typed all this here. I guess I'm just thinking out loud and preaching to myself.

[lisaminor]

I'm also curious about this, I'm already nervous 8 months out.

[mike1]

It's sort of like Hogwarts. There are, generally speaking, two main schools of post-WLS thought. And the members of each school often go to war with each other over which approach is superior. Their online "discussions" too often resemble religious wars.

The two main schools of thought are:

1. Follow the Rules Until You Die School

2. The Eat Like a Regular Person in Moderation School

And then there are a couple of other groups.

There's the "I have a sleeve and will never have to think about or take responsibility for what I eat or anything else ever again!" school. This group contains a lot of WLS patients who either don't lose all their weight and gain a lot of their weight back. Some of them realize, in time, that the sleeve alone really was not the only tool they needed to be successful long-term, and they come back to class (metaphorically speaking) and eventually graduate.

Then there's the "I followed the rules to lose the weight, and now I'm going to eat more normally." Some of those do fine; others go a bit off the deep end and regain some weight, then come back and try to find a happy medium between the rules and "eating normally."

I'm being a bit flip, of course. But there's a real tension between the regimented, disciplined, "perfect" life vs. the impetuous, impulsive, irresponsible (yes, I said it!), whatever everyone else around me is doing at the moment life. And obviously, there's a long range of degrees between those two poles.

Speaking purely for myself, I think I'll wind up during maintenance (I've not been here even a month) finding a sweet spot that works for me that incorporates the accountability of weighing myself frequently and counting my calories / carbs / protein / fats / water for the first year of maintenance. I can tolerate that kind of obsessive behavior (not everyone can). But I know from my past dieting history that if I don't keep a close tab on my behavior I can readily lose control.

My personal goal is to gradually develop more instinctual and habitual control about how much and what kinds of food I eat.

I dunno why I typed all this here. I guess I'm just thinking out loud and preaching to myself.

This is exactly what I was hoping to see, accountability and if any areas that need attention, share them. I see you have a plan, that is so good for others to see and you are planning to blend a combination of things that work for you. We all need to tweak a plan that works for us. I just hate to see anyone fail at anything and I think a lack of accountability leads to failure. After all, if we didn't need accountability we would not have had WLS, right?

[plp55]

Thank you Ann2, you are my go to for sage advice. I'm not organized enough to do that, but, I agree, the easy success at first could be a slippery slope. That's why I like to look up the posts of "veterans", I don't want to fail. I'm right now not tracking, but sticking to my high protein , low carb lifestyle. And NO CRAP!

[New_me_Ari]

This was a good thread. Because I have personally witnessed my sisters before me struggle with following the rules for the sleeve. This makes me nervous cause I start my 3 week pre op diet soon. Its easy to say you won't cheat. I'm hoping I could be successful. Healthy living is my motivation and goal.

[tinman]

I am 2 1/2 years out and was below goal for a while after an unplanned triple bypass surgery one year out from when I had WLS. I was absent from this site for over a year and came back to get motivated. I want to lose 10 to 15 lbs. The posts I see here are doing that, yes thank you all for the wonderful advice and sharing. However I see a very common theme. I see a lot of rule breaking, especially from those about a year to 18 months out. Some examples are drinking while eating or just before eating and just after, and not focussing on proteins first. I also see a lot of junk food eating amongst this group. I am not here to judge anyone but I know for fact from 18 months and longer out this tool we all have becomes less of a physical matter and more of a mental matter. What I am trying to say is this, the rules we were all given are there for a reason, they have been determined by experts with years of experience and data. If excessive rule breaking is working for you now, chances are it will not be in the very near future. I also notice their ins't a lot of talk about BMI's, this is not the end all stat, but it sure as hell gives you a great point to determine your overall weight guidelines. I am not trying to say a rule should not be bent sometimes, it happens to everyone. I am saying rule breaking seems to be a normal every day thing for some that have less than 3 years with the sleeve. Can someone over 3 years out that breaks the rules daily please respond and with a BMI that is acceptable? I don't think I will get many, but if I do I will chalk it up to a learning moment. There now I feel better,, thanks for listening.

Rules are for sheeple. Make your own plan, work your own plan, own your results, and change as needed. If you blindly follow someone elses rules, how are you ever going to know how to fix your weight loss problems that are going to creep up in the future. This board is littered with posts from folks who are 18 months out and have stopped losing and are gaining. Their plan is broken and they have no reason why it's broken and no idea on how to fix it.

Personally, I think the BMI stat is just another attempt to pigeon hole everyone into a mold that cannot possibly be accurate. What do I mean? I mean that that there are a ton of folks out there whose BMI will never be "normal", but, you would be hard pressed to fit them into a group of morbidly obese people and tell them that they are on the road to a quick and early death unless they get that BMI under control. I am one of those folks.

According to the BMI scale, I am morbidly obese and will die soon from complications due to Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, Heart disease, and pulmonary distress due to the presupposed stress on my lungs from all of the fat I am carrying. In reality? I have normal blood pressure, my cholesterol and all of the outliers associated with that is absolutely, spot on perfect. My fasting glucose is below 80 and my most recent EKG and stress test indicates that I have heart health that is in the upper 5% for my age group.

So, why is this? I am an ex athlete. As such, I will always be bigger than you, weigh more than you, and never fit into any of those charts that you and everyone else think are so important. To say that I am morbidly obese is like me saying that you are close to death because you can't bench press 400 lbs.

The measurement I just laid out there is about as relevant to your world as BMI is to mine.

So, I really love what Ann wrote in her post. She's pretty much right.

I don't know who decided what the "rules" are, but, I will say that for me, those rules represented a construct that smelled an awful lot like dieting. I hate diets and diets suck. I sucked at dieting and failed miserably every time I tried. So did most everyone on here. So, when someone comes on here and starts chastising about "breaking rules", then I feel compelled to jump in and say that your rules mean absolutely nothing to me and to a lot of folks on here. Why? Because I have learned how to live a normal life in a non sleeved world and that normal life involves me eating what I want, when I want, and made just the way I like it. What I have done, just like my naturally skinny friends, is learned how to eat normal food and not gain weight.

It is absolutely ludicrous to think that any of us can go the next 30 or 40 years without eating carbs, fat, sugar, or any of the foods we like. We can't and we won't. So, instead of setting yourself up to fail at yet another diet, why not learn, VERY EARLY ON, how to eat normally and not gain weight. That way, you will maintain you goal weight and live happily ever after. Now, if eating on a strict food plan is what blows your skirt up, then you should by golly do just that. But, as my way is not the only way, neither is yours.

I may not be 36 months post op, but, I am 33 months so I'm going to go ahead and claim a 36 month victory. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to gain 265 lbs in the next 90 days. In fact, I'm damned sure I'm not going to gain and keep 5 lbs in the next 90 days. How can I be so sure? Because I have learned how to eat normally in a non sleeved world and since I took the time to learn how to do that, I am equipped with the tools to maintain indefinitely...as long as I follow my number one rule.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever over eat.....ever.


So, in conclusion, I'm going to say this. I don't break my rules on a daily basis. I came up with a set of rules tailored made for my set of circumstances and modified them to assure my success in losing and my success in maintaining. In my very humble opinion, each of us is responsible for coming up with a plan that assures us of success. Each of those plans will be individual and singular because each of us is individual and singular.

[BigJ]

Tinman you have said it the only way I have thought it for a lifetime...Well put.

[Dawnrogers7]

I don't know who decided what the "rules" are, but, I will say that for me, those rules represented a construct that smelled an awful lot like dieting. I hate diets and diets suck. I sucked at dieting and failed miserably every time I tried. So did most everyone on here. So, when someone comes on here and starts chastising about "breaking rules", then I feel compelled to jump in and say that your rules mean absolutely nothing to me and to a lot of folks on here. Why? Because I have learned how to live a normal life in a non sleeved world and that normal life involves me eating what I want, when I want, and made just the way I like it. What I have done, just like my naturally skinny friends, is learned how to eat normal food and not gain weight.

I really like Ann's straight forward insight and I think tinman is a guru when it comes to advice on wls, keeping yourself accountable and enjoying your life at the same time.

I lost 100 pounds in 7 months and thought I had hit goal. I continued to lose for another couple of months and landed and have STAYED down around 119 pounds and I consider that my forever weight! I believe tinman has the right mindset. We are all individual and cannot (literally and figuratively) be put into the same mold. This is a lifelong process and I don't ever want to think of myself as being on a diet again. I also believe I eat like a "normal weight" person now. I always get my protein in (a little less than most folks because my Dr recommended a little less so I can eat a more varied diet) 64 ounces of water is essential, vitamins and supplements daily and I also NEVER overeat. I think part of my success was learning what full felt like for me early in my journey. I do a moderate amount of exercise which includes swimming laps 2-3 times per week and lifting light weights 2-3 times a week. After the essentials are taken care of I go on with my day. I eat differently almost every day. I am involved in a lot of various activities and I never know what a day might bring. I always carry a protein bar or nuts with me in case a project prevents me from eating for more than three hours. I eat 4-5 times a day and usually eat 200 to 300 calories at a time. Some days I feel hungrier than other days and I find on those days I tend to want to eat more carbs/fats/sweets. I don't deny myself anything on those days. I just CAN'T eat enough to make me gain weight because I NEVER overeat!! The next day I might feel like eating my protein and a ton of veggies or fruit or whatever. The point I'm trying to make is I listen to my body like a "normal weight" person. I might eat more "non healthy" foods some days but it always evens out. I weigh myself once a week and I have a three pound weight range that I stick with, however, I have never been more than two pounds up or down either way.

However I see a very common theme. I see a lot of rule breaking, especially from those about a year to 18 months out. Some examples are drinking while eating or just before eating and just after, and not focussing on proteins first. I also see a lot of junk food eating amongst this group. I am not here to judge anyone but I know for fact from 18 months and longer out this tool we all have becomes less of a physical matter and more of a mental matter.

I have "only" maintained five months and I will be creeping up on the "scary" 18 months soon. My accountability is KNOWING I never want to be heavy again. I will always weigh myself weekly. For me maintenance is primarily a mindset. I do what is essential for MY plan. I have taken huge precautions to make sure I don't overeat. If I ever get to three pounds more than my goal weight I will do whatever is needed to get down again immediately! Most slim people I know gain a little over the holidays or on vacation etc. and then cut back a little for a week or two and go on their way. I have no doubt whatsoever about my maintaining my goal weight for the rest of my life.

The last thing I want to mention is all this "numbers" drivel. Just because some folks start behaving a certain way at 18 months or two years or had a stall a month after surgery doesn't mean it is the norm. There are hundreds and hundreds of folks reading this forum that do not comment. We have no idea what their "stats" might be.

EVERYONE on this forum can be a success!! Go with your gut! Sorry, I couldn't help but say it... LOL

[LisaZBee]

I will follow this post as I'm interested in the answers to the OP. I have enjoyed reading all of the follow up posts, esp. Ann's and Tinman's. I think about this topic all of the time because I am only 5 months out. I deal with head hunger but as long as I am getting my protein and fluids in and following my surgeon's instructions (don't drink during meals, chew food well, take small bites, avoid sugars and slider foods) I am able to lose slowly but steadily. I also have hypothyroid so I believe that may be affecting my rate of loss. I'm actually happy with a slower loss because of my history to lose weight and put it back on. Because I tend to be a bit obsessive compulsive (and was in my dieting pre-sleeve - which obviously did not work well for me) I am in the camp (I can't remember how Ann put it) that does not want to obsessively track everything. For me, being an emotional eater (historically), it is critical for me to not obsess about the number on the scale, not to have to write everything down, not to deny myself a small amount of the occasional treat. That said, I focus on protein, water, keeping sugars to a minimum, vitamins and moving my body. I've found I am one who gets into the deprivation/reward vicious cycle. I am happy with my moderate approach but am nervous about what is healthy and what might be too "loose" so to speak and cause me to go back to bad habits. Sometimes I find myself thinking in my former ways and forgetting that I am different on the inside with a tiny new tummy. I know that can be a slippery slope so the truth is I will *always* have to think about what I'm doing at least in a macro sense.

Re: BMI - I am one like Tinman who is a former athlete. My starting BMI was 41.1 and my current BMI is 31.9 which puts me in Obese Class 1. I am down from a size 18/20 to a 12/14 and I am getting all kinds of compliments but also caution to not get too thin (this always makes me want to laugh). The truth is I need to lose 46 lbs. to get to my goal but my husband says he can't imagine my losing more than about 20 lbs. (he is a horrible judge of weight so that isn't saying much). My point is that at 146 lbs. I will wear the size a woman who is 120-130 usually will wear. I have always weighed heavier even at my lowest weight and size. I'm not sure if I am making much sense. I'm only a little over 1/2 the way to my goal but my blood pressure is normal, cholesterol is great and the only medication I take is for my hypothyroid (which I will likely take forever.) I also was not approved by insurance and paid a nauseating amount of money for this surgery because I was a lucky fat but otherwise fairly healthy person . So BMI is only one indicator. I've heard that the waist to hip ratio is quite possibly a better indicator (of heart disease health/risk) and that they are looking more at inflammation as a more reliable indicator of health rather than cholesterol (among other measures.) Sorry for the ramble...just my thoughts.

[Ann2]

Lisa, I hear you on multiple fronts. Like you, I was not in a hurry to lose all my weight. I didn't care at all how fast that went. But now I'm so used to eating less than it takes to maintain 148-150 pounds. It's a head-shift to stop wanting to lose weight.

Unlike you, I have never been an athlete. I'm clumsy as all get out. Endurance, get 'er done, and carrying heavy packs and sleeping on the ground week after week are my sports. I like the outdoors. And 5-star spa hotels. And 6-star cruise ships.

How tall are you, by the way?

[readytobthin]

Get em in line !!

[mike1]

Rules are for sheeple. Make your own plan, work your own plan, own your results, and change as needed. If you blindly follow someone elses rules, how are you ever going to know how to fix your weight loss problems that are going to creep up in the future. This board is littered with posts from folks who are 18 months out and have stopped losing and are gaining. Their plan is broken and they have no reason why it's broken and no idea on how to fix it.

Personally, I think the BMI stat is just another attempt to pigeon hole everyone into a mold that cannot possibly be accurate. What do I mean? I mean that that there are a ton of folks out there whose BMI will never be "normal", but, you would be hard pressed to fit them into a group of morbidly obese people and tell them that they are on the road to a quick and early death unless they get that BMI under control. I am one of those folks.

According to the BMI scale, I am morbidly obese and will die soon from complications due to Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, Heart disease, and pulmonary distress due to the presupposed stress on my lungs from all of the fat I am carrying. In reality? I have normal blood pressure, my cholesterol and all of the outliers associated with that is absolutely, spot on perfect. My fasting glucose is below 80 and my most recent EKG and stress test indicates that I have heart health that is in the upper 5% for my age group.

So, why is this? I am an ex athlete. As such, I will always be bigger than you, weigh more than you, and never fit into any of those charts that you and everyone else think are so important. To say that I am morbidly obese is like me saying that you are close to death because you can't bench press 400 lbs.

The measurement I just laid out there is about as relevant to your world as BMI is to mine.

So, I really love what Ann wrote in her post. She's pretty much right.

I don't know who decided what the "rules" are, but, I will say that for me, those rules represented a construct that smelled an awful lot like dieting. I hate diets and diets suck. I sucked at dieting and failed miserably every time I tried. So did most everyone on here. So, when someone comes on here and starts chastising about "breaking rules", then I feel compelled to jump in and say that your rules mean absolutely nothing to me and to a lot of folks on here. Why? Because I have learned how to live a normal life in a non sleeved world and that normal life involves me eating what I want, when I want, and made just the way I like it. What I have done, just like my naturally skinny friends, is learned how to eat normal food and not gain weight.

It is absolutely ludicrous to think that any of us can go the next 30 or 40 years without eating carbs, fat, sugar, or any of the foods we like. We can't and we won't. So, instead of setting yourself up to fail at yet another diet, why not learn, VERY EARLY ON, how to eat normally and not gain weight. That way, you will maintain you goal weight and live happily ever after. Now, if eating on a strict food plan is what blows your skirt up, then you should by golly do just that. But, as my way is not the only way, neither is yours.

I may not be 36 months post op, but, I am 33 months so I'm going to go ahead and claim a 36 month victory. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to gain 265 lbs in the next 90 days. In fact, I'm damned sure I'm not going to gain and keep 5 lbs in the next 90 days. How can I be so sure? Because I have learned how to eat normally in a non sleeved world and since I took the time to learn how to do that, I am equipped with the tools to maintain indefinitely...as long as I follow my number one rule.

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever over eat.....ever.


So, in conclusion, I'm going to say this. I don't break my rules on a daily basis. I came up with a set of rules tailored made for my set of circumstances and modified them to assure my success in losing and my success in maintaining. In my very humble opinion, each of us is responsible for coming up with a plan that assures us of success. Each of those plans will be individual and singular because each of us is individual and singular.

I am glad your program is working for you, I really am. Your over simplification of telling a group of people that needed WLS to never over eat is like telling a politician to never lie. In the real world that dog don't hunt. I am also glad you have justified your BMI to fit your needs. Not many others on planet earth can be so creative. As I said I am glad your plan works for you. I think we will find the vast majority of WLS surgeon patients need rules and need to try to follow them as much as they can. If we all had the self discipline to never over eat, would we be here, I think not.